Cupric acetate from copper?

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Author	Topic: Cupric acetate from copper?
Semtex Enigma Hive Bee	posted 05-30-1999 01:12 PM Can one get cupric acetate from copper metal or perhaps copper carb, or maybe CuCl2???
sunlight Hive Bee	posted 05-31-1999 02:25 AM I gues this will work : Cupric carbonate + acetic acid CuCO3+2AcOH ----> Cu(AcO)2 + CO2 + H2O
Piglet Hive Bee	posted 05-31-1999 10:28 AM OK: full OTC for you. Cu + HCl (brick cleaner) --> CuCl2. CuCl2 + Na2CO3 (sodium carbonate) --> CuCO3 (non-soluable) + 2NaCl (for ya fries). CuCO3 + heat --> CuO + CO2 (for ya growroom). CuO + 2AcOH --> Cu(AcO)2 + H2O. I have never tried sunlights route, but he is usually right! Either way, it's boring but easy!
Semtex Enigma Hive Bee	posted 05-31-1999 01:42 PM Would you guys suggest GAA?
megalomania NewBee	posted 05-31-1999 06:34 PM You can leave deposits of copper oxide on copper metal by heating it with a torch. Perhaps continually burning and dipping in vinegar would work?
sunlight Hive Bee	posted 06-01-1999 01:59 AM I have not tried it, but CuCO3 + HCl produces CuCl2, so I guess acetic acid will produce the acetate, acetic acid is stronger than carbonic acid. Cupric carbonate is cheap and OTC, it si used in ceramics. And if you heat it, as Pigled says, you get black CuO, I've done this.
Chromic Hive Bee	posted 01-04-2000 01:58 AM Even though dated, the above is complete bullshit. Cu will not react with H+, Cu's standard reduction potential is too high. Good luck w/getting Cu into sol'n; nitric/sulfuric would surely work--but phew, nasty and not very otc! I started with CuSO4.5H2O, added excess sodium bicarbonate (copper bicarbonate is unstable and will decompose to the carbonate salt), filtered (kept insoluble copper carbonate salt), and then added excess vinegar ('til bubbling stopped). And evaporated. Look Ma! No scale! And still a decently pure catalyst. However, boys + girls. I posted this because I was searching for info on CuO catalyzed imine to amine hydrogenation instead of going the standard route of using Hg/Al amalgam. KrZ might like this (just 'cuz it's a pressure reaction, where pressure isn't really a necessity), sure Pd/C is great, but CuO is so OTC it's not funny. And so bloody CHEAP... I saw it covered in the famous "Synthetic Reductions in Clandestine Amphetamine and Methamphetamine Laboratories: A Review", but saw no references nor did I see any posts on the subject at The Hive. Any takers?
Chromic Hive Bee	posted 01-04-2000 02:06 AM I should explain... The reason I put this in HERE (as opposed to a new thread), is because Sunlight talked about the production of CuO catalyst from CuCO3 which is very easy way of making this catalyst; and this thread already deals with copper catalysts (although with misinformation). May as well kill two birds with one thread. :-)
Osmium PimpBee	posted 01-04-2000 05:09 AM The only (de-)hydrogenation catalyst I know is copper chromite. It usually requires drastic conditions, that's why it is rarely used in the lab. It might work in special industrial applications, but I don't think that it is a viable alternative for garage chemistry.
Chromic Hive Bee	posted 01-04-2000 02:47 PM Strange. Well, CuO is listed as a hydrogenation catalyst for a reductive amination on that e-text on Rhodium's site. No reference though. (it's blank, maybe never transcribed?) I have never heard of it either. Seems cheaper than Pd/C, and more environmentally friendly than Hg/Al; and likely weaker and more selective to reducing the imine rather than the ketone. And hey, if you're doing O2 Wacker oxidations, why not do H2 reductive aminations?
iudexk Hive Bee	posted 01-04-2000 05:02 PM chromic (or anyone)- Do you know of an OTC CuSO4(.xH2O) source?
Osmium PimpBee	posted 01-04-2000 05:35 PM It's used as a fungicide to treat wood. Used as a fairly strong aq. solution. Maybe you can find it when you ask at a company selling those big logs for construction purposes. Sometimes it's called copper vitriol or something like that.
Chromic Hive Bee	posted 01-05-2000 12:36 AM Ok, seriously order the real stuff. Yes, it's available in some products OTC (read the http link). But don't bother. Copper sulfate isn't suspicious by a LONG stretch. You may as well be ordering sodium chloride. I'll cover this in depth for you. Your kids want to grow crystals. You want to buy tech grade CuSO4. Info on this hobby at http://www.commean.com/rocks/crystals/ You want to plate some steel with copper. Check the rec.crafts.metalworking faq for info on how to do this with copper sulfate, cheaply and on contact. You want to DIY to avoid outrageous costs you had quoted in your area. Suppliers for chems like this could even be arranged through your local home-town pharmacy. Just say you got a book from the public library detailing how to do it. If they don't have it, ask where to find it. Use sayings like "xyz said I should try giving you a call". Keep calling until you find a place that sells chems to individuals. And hey, when you get hooked up with this supplier, you can order other boring but very useful salts like NH4Cl and the like.
Chromic Hive Bee	posted 01-05-2000 12:40 AM Oh yeah, crystal growing is a great reason to order normally ungodly amounts of salts (ie a couple kg) of the chemical. Just say you like growing big crystals for your book-shelf. If you continuously order it, your friends liked them and asked for you to grow a few for them. There are so many bloody reasons to have chemicals, just use your head!!!
iudexk Hive Bee	posted 01-05-2000 04:45 AM Chromic - Thanks, It's not that I haven't tried ordering basic chems, but in UK no legit chem supplier will sell anything, not even denatured alc. to an individual. I'll see what the local chemist can do, though. Otherwise I'll have to buy fungicide, or order from US at a shipping cost of ~$30
ChemHack Hive Bee	posted 01-06-2000 05:29 PM You can buy it for like $5 per pound at Home Depot. It is a product called "Root Kill" and is 99% CuSO4.5H2O. Pretty blue crystals. Packaged in white plastic cylinder with a red paper label. Near the drain openers.
hans Hive Bee	posted 01-07-2000 06:35 AM Iudexk: try some art supply store. CuSO4 (and many other salts and conc. nitric acid) are used for patination of bronze sculpture. Even in the UK.
Bond NewBee	posted 01-13-2000 11:25 AM IudexK: CuCO3 is available from pottery suppliers as the raw material for green glaze. Add H2SO4.
kneegee Hive Bee	posted 01-19-2000 06:40 PM If one has CuCO3 and is seeking cupric acetate, one would react it with acetic acid without going through a cupric sulfate step; also metallic Cu won't react with HCl, since Cu is below hydrogen in activity. Cupric carbonate is a basic salt, something like 2CuCO3+Cu(OH)2 or something similar
milamber NewBee	posted 01-20-2000 05:33 AM calcium acetate + copperIIsulfate yields copperIIacetate + calcium sulfate . calcuim sulfate percipitates from copperII acetate solution.
milamber NewBee	posted 01-20-2000 05:37 AM piglet how about a reply. I was milamberson until forgot my password.
rev drone Hive Bee	posted 01-20-2000 12:54 PM Why not simply treat copper metal with acetic acid? Go ahead: take a penny from your pocket, add vinegar, within a minute, you'll see bubbles. Copper is readily attacked by acetic acid. Why make life complicated? ------------------ -the good reverend drone Ipsa scientia potestas est
Chromic Hive Bee	posted 01-22-2000 07:59 PM Drone, copper pennies are alloys. Cu will not react with H+, it's SRP is too high. And to add new information, I imagine copper(II) acetate will easily break down if you let it get too hot. HNO3 will react, but only because it's a violent oxidizing agent. Your experiment doesn't do anything other than make the pennies shiny by dissolving small amounts of oxidized copper.
rev drone Hive Bee	posted 01-24-2000 02:13 PM Chromic, I'm calling you on this one: what are you talking about? Take a look in the Merck: Cu metal readily reacts with a host of acids, including acetic acid. If you don't care for pennies, try my experiment with copper wire, or copper sheets. Copper is oxidized quite easily, thank you (note the subtle green coating on the Statue of Liberty.) It is DEFINATELY not a noble metal. ------------------ -the good reverend drone Ipsa scientia potestas est
Chromic Hive Bee	posted 01-24-2000 04:59 PM I really doubt it. I know Cu + 4H(+) + 2NO3(-) -> 2NO2 + Cu(2+) + 2 H2O happens. Cu + 2H(+) -> Cu(2+) + H2 does not happen. I have personally tried conc. HCl. It does not react with the copper. I haven't tried conc. acetic acid.. it's a weaker acid, and not a great oxidizer. I can't see how it would work. I believe copper gains a black tarnish from reacting with sulfide ions, just as silver does. Copper does corrode easily over time forming a green coat of Cu2CO3(OH)2, so you're right, it's not a "noble" metal--but it still won't react with most acids. I draw this from my experience, not from emperical knowledge.
Bright Star Hive Bee	posted 01-26-2000 11:41 AM Droney- I think he's right. a little experiment of my own ... Two pennies, one in a Conc. Nitric Acid solution, the other (with the copper on the side scraped away) in Conc. HCl. The Nitric Acid solution produced a 'Silver' Penny (Yes I know its Zinc). The HCl solution produced two thin penny 'foils' ... IE the Zinc had beed eaten out of the center. The trick was that the nitric is not only acid, but oxidizer. And The HCl is mearly acid. Acetic Acid is just a weaker acid than HCl and no oxidizer. Therefore .... Please correct me if I'm wrong. I need the education
dwarfer Hive Bee	posted 01-26-2000 06:47 PM How about a little EMF for assistance. OK OK so I'm a plastics guy and not a chemist: but if you had the copper anode stuck in acetic acid, would not copper acetate eventuate in the electrolyte?? dumbdwarfer
dwarfer Hive Bee	posted 01-26-2000 06:49 PM PS: A 1/2 cell reaction might be necessary. Surely will get the copper into solution.
Chromic Hive Bee	posted 01-27-2000 06:28 AM Dwarfer, yes of course. But half-cell reactions are a boring way to make this co-catalyst. Btw, my root kill at my favorite hardware store is like 1% available Cu solution in some organic complex, not CuSO4 pentahydrate crystals. I imagine Na2CO3 or NaHCO3 would work wonders for precipitating CuCO3. (which I noticed is more blue/green than the emerald green color of CuCl2 hydrate) And finally, after reading up, acetic acid is actually more of a reducing agent than an oxidizing agent. Silly me.
rev drone Hive Bee	posted 01-27-2000 11:52 AM Chromic, quote: Cu + 2H(+) -> Cu(2+) + H2 does not happen. Um, yes it does. quote: ...Copper does corrode easily over time forming a green coat of Cu2CO3(OH)2, so you're right, it's not a "noble" metal--but it still won't react with most acids.[quote] [quote]...And finally, after reading up, acetic acid is actually more of a reducing agent than an oxidizing agent. Silly me. [quote] Permit me to beat this dead horse to bits, once-and-for-all. For your inspection, I submit a quotation of The Merck Index, 12th Ed., entry 2583 ("Copper"): [quote]...Very slowly attacked by cold hydrochloric acid; readily by nitric acid, and by both hot conc H2SO4 and HBr. It is also attacked by acetic acid and other organic acids... There's not much room for misinterpretation in there. Is this sufficient for you now? quote: I draw this from my experience, not from emperical knowledge. Please define "empiracle knowledge", and explain how you differentiate it from experience. Copper does indeed react with acetic acid. I drew this originally from the expirience of throwing an old penny in vinegar when I was 12, watching the coins bubble, and comming back to find the copper was stripped. This belief was reinforced when I read in the Merck Index that this indeed was the case. Yes, the pKa is lower with acetic acid than nitric acid, and yes nitric acid can act as a strong oxidizing agent. But these are not the only factors affecting reactivity. [quote]...And finally, after reading up, acetic acid is actually more of a reducing agent than an oxidizing agent. Silly me. [quote] Huh?! Where are you getting this stuff from, FMAN? What do you mean when you say its an oxidizing or reducing agent, and why are you using these terms this way? ------------------ -the good reverend drone Ipsa scientia potestas est
dwarfer Hive Bee	posted 01-27-2000 03:11 PM Damn I thought the goal was to get to cupric acetate: then it turns out to be "cupric acetate in an UNBORING way". Well: who'se to know? One mans BORE is another man's delight. dwrfr
Chromic Hive Bee	posted 01-28-2000 04:56 PM I stand corrected. I've never seen copper react with acetic acid, and having some vinegar handy, I'm going to try this... not that I doubt the Merck! I realize that the ionization constant for acetic acid is many orders of magnitude lower than hydrochloric acid... and this doesn't necessarily affect if it will be reactive or not... but... if the eq'n REALLY is Cu + 2H+ -> Cu2+ + H2... then it is affected by the difference in pKa--that's just simple Le Chatelier's principle stuff. I thought the electrochemical data says it shouldn't happen. (ie I thought that metals above hydrogen react, metals below hydrogen, don't react)
rev drone Hive Bee	posted 02-04-2000 05:05 AM LeChattelier? How does LeChattelier play into this?
Chromic Hive Bee	posted 02-07-2000 09:39 PM Sorry my mistake, that one is used for systems in equilibrium, this obviously isn't that sort of rxn. Btw, my results: tried a thin copper metal plate in 5% acetic acid, let react for a couple days. I noticed the vapor sped up corrosion in part above water-line, but no real amounts of Cu(II) ion formed. No real rxn with metal under the acid. So I precipitated some copper metal from Cu(II) using Al shards and a drop of HCl to remove the oxide on the Al. Washed quite a number of times to remove everything but the copper metal. I thought that if I increase surface area I might see some more dramatic reaction. Then I used two 100ml beakers. One with 5% acetic, the other with 5% acetic and some HCl. Added some copper powder. I let it react for over two days. The sol'n had no noticeable change in color. I qualitatively tested Cu(II) ion by forming the copper-ammonium complex, and I got a very light black-blue indicating some Cu(II) ion. In summary: making Cu(II) ion from Cu metal is not the way. Refluxing with GAA might make a very significant difference in the rate of rxn. I don't have any handy. Chromic out.
Chromic Hive Bee	posted 02-07-2000 09:43 PM Oh yeah, additional H+ ion from the few ml's HCl in the one beaker made no qualitative difference in the amount of Cu(II) ion I saw from the ammonium test in my watch glass. I'm sure it made some sort of quantitative difference, but it must be a small one.

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